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  • #46
    Originally posted by Paddles View Post

    I don't know if Bitcoin was designed to ever be a currency, was it?

    The most recent price increase has been driven by institutional money, this is why we haven't seen what's been named "Altseason".
    Institutional money isn't going to poor into s$%coins.

    Bitcoin isn't going away, it's proven that.
    Welcome to the forum Paddles, great post.





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    • #47
      Originally posted by Paddles View Post

      I don't know if Bitcoin was designed to ever be a currency, was it?

      It was, apparently, designed as a form of non-government controlled / printed currency that would enable transactions to occur in total secrecy on a distributed ledger. Making it ideal fro underworld nefqrious acitvities - they type that are more concerned with laundering money rather than exchanging a stable store of value.


      Originally posted by Paddles View Post
      The most recent price increase has been driven by institutional money, this is why we haven't seen what's been named "Altseason".
      Institutional money isn't going to poor into s$%coins.
      Bitcoin certainly seems to have regained favour - its currently got 63% dominance amongst all 2330 coins. I dont know who or why it has received recent attention. Hormonally charged bulls and a new FOMO virus are likely causes.


      Originally posted by Paddles View Post
      Bitcoin isn't going away, it's proven that.
      I agree, Gambling has been around since adam and eve (Adam bet a rib nothing would happen if he chomped on an apple) and the cryptocurrency market creates a global unregulated casino.

      In the mean time no real world use of Bitcoin has been established

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post

        It was, apparently, designed as a form of non-government controlled / printed currency that would enable transactions to occur in total secrecy on a distributed ledger. Making it ideal fro underworld nefqrious acitvities - they type that are more concerned with laundering money rather than exchanging a stable store of value.


        Bitcoin certainly seems to have regained favour - its currently got 63% dominance amongst all 2330 coins. I dont know who or why it has received recent attention. Hormonally charged bulls and a new FOMO virus are likely causes.


        I agree, Gambling has been around since adam and eve (Adam bet a rib nothing would happen if he chomped on an apple) and the cryptocurrency market creates a global unregulated casino.

        In the mean time no real world use of Bitcoin has been established
        I take it you haven't read the Bitcoin whitepaper then? That's probably going to be your best resource in determining what BTC was designed for.

        "I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party..."Satoshi Nakamoto

        Money/cash and currency aren't the same thing. Currency possesses buying power bestowed upon it by a government, so to call it a "non-government controlled currency" is contradictory.

        Gambling is subjective, getting up in the morning is a gamble. So what? Don't like it don't play with it.

        As for no real world cases? You stated one in your first sentence.
        I can buy a house, car, holiday, pay taxes, book a trip to space. companies like Victvs are allowing staff to be paid in BTC.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Paddles View Post

          I take it you haven't read the Bitcoin whitepaper then? That's probably going to be your best resource in determining what BTC was designed for.

          "I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party..."Satoshi Nakamoto

          Money/cash and currency aren't the same thing. Currency possesses buying power bestowed upon it by a government, so to call it a "non-government controlled currency" is contradictory.
          Some much in there that we can discuss over endless hours and countless jugs of beer and still not come to an agreement.

          So lets just say everyone agrees that Bitcoin includes the word "coin" in a virtual world where there are currencies - cryptocurrencies.

          [QUOTE=Paddles;n16308]
          Gambling is subjective, getting up in the morning is a gamble. So what? Don't like it don't play with it.Gambling is objective in that in any single play you know precisely what is at stake. Getting up in the morning is not a gamble - it is a certainty after which there may be some risks with perhaps unknown variables leading to unknown consequences.
          At any given point someone is either winning or loosing in trading crypts with Bitcoin currently subject to a 7.52% swing over the past 24 hours.

          Originally posted by Paddles View Post
          As for no real world cases? You stated one in your first sentence.
          I can buy a house, car, holiday, pay taxes, book a trip to space. companies like Victvs are allowing staff to be paid in BTC.
          In NZ I am aware of only one house for sale (not sold, thus not bought) using bitcoin - Unsworth Heights. Sellers obviously haven't figured out that a house is worth X, doesnt matter what currency and if the market doesnt want to pay X then no sale will occur.

          While it is theoretically possible to buy / sell cars holidays using bitcoin in the real world very very few actual markets exist to enable this - so its not "real world". Aside from the issue of currency fluctuation - who would want to buy / sell knowing the bitcoin currency ebbs / flows eg 7.52% in 24 hours. If you are on the wrong side of teh transaction id sure makes for an expensive transaction.

          Lets see how long Ohio keeps allowing bitcoin tax payments. As for buying a ticket into space - you know what they say about a mug being born every minute.

          Comment


          • #50

            I could call my kettle a toaster, it doesnt make it so.

            Sotashi never used the word currency when discribing bitcoin, he called it electronic cash. Many have trouble differentiating the two, so you're not on your own there.

            You've gone from zero use cases for bitcoin to there are very few markets that exist. So what is it? None or a few?
            If you want to discuss volatility that's a different discussion to use cases.

            I was just reading this morning that a boat owned by JP Morgan has been seized by US customs with a billion dollars worth of drugs on it. And guess what? Not one single bitcoin was mentioned.

            Comment


            • #51
              I reckon we should explore the “real world” claims in a bit more detail. – Buying a property.

              In Australia, in what was claimed to be a world first - a “jetsons“ home went up for auction in April 2019 with a price guide of 700 – 800 bitcoins or around AUD$3.88 . It didn’t sell in the auction – with two buyers interested. One paying bitcoin, one paying cash. Its still listed – now for $3.4m (Here - https://www.realestateview.com.au/re...tial-12049805/) . It was misreported as “sold” here https://www.btcnn.com/luxury-house-i...-457-bitcoins/ so we need to take sales reports with a grain of salt.

              In NZ, as far as I can tell only two properties have ever been up for sale offering bitcoin as the vehicle acceptable for payment. One was in 2017 where a Marlborough Sounds piece of land was offered for Bitcoin. It was going for 10 bitcoin or $200,000. In the end it sold for NZD.
              And one is in Unsworth Heights (https://homes.co.nz/address/auckland...ater-vale/lNAe) which originally went for sale at 66 bitcoin + $612,500 cash. It didn’t sell at auction and remains for sale.

              In NZ you cant get a Bitcoin mortgage if you cant pay full price for a property. I’m not sure there is any such facility anywhere in the world.

              So much for “real world” use of bitcoin in property transactions.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Paddles View Post

                Sotashi never used the word currency when discribing bitcoin, he called it electronic cash. Many have trouble differentiating the two, so you're not on your own there.
                You are dancing on the head of a pin here. Sotashis never really used the word "cash" either. He did once in his white paper heading "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" and once in the abstract "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution"

                He did use the word "currency ("These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency...") and it seems he is swapping the "physical part with an electronic part.

                He made no attempt to define either "cash" or currency". What he did was describe precisely what I did this weekend when I made a credit card payment to purchase off Amazon.

                Tomatoe / tomato, potatoe / potato. I think we are essentially tallking about the same this thing

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post
                  I reckon we should explore the “real world” claims in a bit more detail. – Buying a property.

                  In Australia, in what was claimed to be a world first - a “jetsons“ home went up for auction in April 2019 with a price guide of 700 – 800 bitcoins or around AUD$3.88 . It didn’t sell in the auction – with two buyers interested. One paying bitcoin, one paying cash. Its still listed – now for $3.4m (Here - https://www.realestateview.com.au/re...tial-12049805/) . It was misreported as “sold” here https://www.btcnn.com/luxury-house-i...-457-bitcoins/ so we need to take sales reports with a grain of salt.

                  In NZ, as far as I can tell only two properties have ever been up for sale offering bitcoin as the vehicle acceptable for payment. One was in 2017 where a Marlborough Sounds piece of land was offered for Bitcoin. It was going for 10 bitcoin or $200,000. In the end it sold for NZD.
                  And one is in Unsworth Heights (https://homes.co.nz/address/auckland...ater-vale/lNAe) which originally went for sale at 66 bitcoin + $612,500 cash. It didn’t sell at auction and remains for sale.

                  In NZ you cant get a Bitcoin mortgage if you cant pay full price for a property. I’m not sure there is any such facility anywhere in the world.

                  So much for “real world” use of bitcoin in property transactions.
                  If we are going to explore "real world" we should at least expand our scope to the actual world, not just a couple of examples in Aust and NZ who are years behind the adoption than that of other countries.

                  https://www.businessinsider.com.au/50-dubai-luxury-flats-sold-for-bitcoin-and-one-buyer-bought-10-2018-2?r=US&IR=T

                  This article explains how the super rich are getting their Bitcoin with one client wanting to buy 25% of all BTC.


                  https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2019/05/30/how-billionaires-are-buying-up-bitcoin/#31968e25208c

                  Crypto Mortgages are just around the corner - no need for a bank anymore.


                  https://www.coindesk.com/well-tokeni...um-this-summer

                  As always Mini you're full of assumptions and contradictions, but sadly zero facts. You've been wrong about bitcoin since your very first post on the subject, on any forum. Why stop now?

                  Last edited by Paddles; 10-07-19, 11:47 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post
                    You are dancing on the head of a pin here. Sotashis never really used the word "cash" either. He did once in his white paper heading "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" and once in the abstract "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution"
                    "Sotashis never really used the word "cash" either." - except for once here, oh and once here too.... so at least twice Major?

                    He also used the word cash here:

                    "I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party..."Satoshi Nakamoto

                    Notice he didn't say electronic currency system?

                    Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post
                    He did use the word "currency ("These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency...") and it seems he is swapping the "physical part with an electronic part.

                    My comment was "Sotashi never used the word currency when describing bitcoin"

                    The excerpt you have used ("These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency...") was describing how physical currency can be a way to mitigate costs associated with fraud in the current banking system.

                    Let look at the full sentence. "These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments over a communications channel without a trusted party."

                    I think that sums up how genuine you are.


                    Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post
                    He made no attempt to define either "cash" or currency". What he did was describe precisely what I did this weekend when I made a credit card payment to purchase off Amazon.

                    Tomatoe / tomato, potatoe / potato. I think we are essentially tallking about the same this thing
                    No attempt what so ever aye Major. Click image for larger version  Name:	Capture.JPG Views:	0 Size:	100.7 KB ID:	16393

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Paddles View Post
                      As always Mini you're full of assumptions and contradictions, but sadly zero facts. You've been wrong about bitcoin since your very first post on the subject, on any forum. Why stop now?
                      Where in my above post was I lacking in fact?. No assumptions. No contradiction. Just stating it as reported.
                      So lets explore this actual world you inhabit, full of Dubai luxury apartments and Mayfair properties. Sadly that will never be my actual world. Its an exalted world I suspect inhabited by 1%’ers. So if you want to use that as the basis of your support feel free. I think what we are most likely seeing is money laundering in full play.

                      [QUOTE=Paddles;n16384]
                      https://www.businessinsider.com.au/50-dubai-luxury-flats-sold-for-bitcoin-and-one-buyer-bought-10-2018-2?r=US&IR=T"]https://www.businessinsider.com.au/50-dubai-luxury-flats-sold-for-bitcoin-and-one-buyer-bought-10-2018-2?r=US&IR=T[/QUOTE]

                      Lets look at t these in a bit more detail. These sales were, it seems for around US$130,000, about 15 bitcoins or around $8,666 a bitcoin. The two-bedroom apartments priced at $US380,000, or about 45 bitcoins or around $8,444 a bitcoin. So lets call it $8,500 – about late Nov 2017 Bitcoin values.

                      Fast forward a month to late Dec 2017 and 15 bitcoins were worth $210,000. So within a month one unhappy buyer has lost $80,000 in bitcoin value. Even at todays rates those coins would be worth $187,500. So really not a very good idea at all using Bitcoin as the preferred sort of tradeable value.


                      Your next piece of supporting evidence is an article about how someone supposedly has a client wanting to buy 25% of all Bitcoin. Whether it is indeed factual and indeed realistic is moot. And hardly relevant to any kind of world.

                      Is this what it is that is driving Bitcoin – fanboys in their fantasy world thinking that trading Crypts puts them on par with the hoi polloy?
                      Crypto Mortgages are just around the corner - no need for a bank anymore.
                      Shall we just book mark this one and see how it plays out. My money is on it going nowhere.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Paddles View Post

                        "Sotashis never really used the word "cash" either." - except for once here, oh and once here too.... so at least twice Major?
                        Ummmm - that is precisely what i said.



                        Originally posted by Paddles View Post
                        He also used the word cash here: "I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party..."Satoshi Nakamoto
                        Not in the version of the white paper I used as a source which is here https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

                        Originally posted by Paddles View Post
                        Notice he didn't say electronic currency system?
                        There were lots of things he didnt say.




                        Originally posted by Paddles View Post
                        My comment was "Sotashi never used the word currency when describing bitcoin"

                        The excerpt you have used ("These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency...") was describing how physical currency can be a way to mitigate costs associated with fraud in the current banking system.

                        Let look at the full sentence. "These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments over a communications channel without a trusted party."

                        I think that sums up how genuine you are.
                        I think you will find in the real and abstract world everyone is very familiar with the expression "cryptocurrency". If you dont think it is reasonable to wrap up Bitcoin in that expression I suspect you have a mountain of public opinion ahead of you that wont be easily swayed by your view. But good luck



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                        • #57
                          There was a lot he didn't say Major, very observant of you. However he did say cash....he even put it in the title.

                          Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post
                          Bitcoin is still continuing to exhibit the same characteristics which makes me think it will never be a viable currency - volatility.
                          I was simply questioning your assumption that it's a currency. Sure, it may not be a viable currency, who said it was meant to be? Sotashi never did. That's a real never BTW, not a never except for this one time...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Anyone notice the difference between Bitcoin and other crypto yet?

                            Weve seen the pressure Zucks is coming under to back off with his s@#×coin. And the regulators swooping the crypto startups popping up in the squllions.

                            There is no Bitcoin CEO they can send a letter to asking him to stop. There is no Bitcoin office the feds can raid.
                            There are no staff to arrest.

                            Meanwhile BTC keeps getting stronger.
                            The hashrate hits a new ATH at 64.85 EHs making Bitcoin the most secure asset....EVER.

                            It now appers Bitcoin is a store of value according to the fed. Finally they managed to get something right!

                            Powell was asked: "If a cryptocurrency system became prevalent throughout the globe, would that diminish or remove the need for a reserve currency?"

                            Powell replied: "Things like that are possible, but we really haven't seen them, we haven't seen widespread adoption. Bitcoin is a good example. Really almost no one uses bitcoin for payments — they use it as an alternative to gold. It's a store of value, a speculative store of value, like gold."

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Paddles View Post
                              Anyone notice the difference between Bitcoin and other crypto yet?
                              No.

                              Both remain volatile thus rendering their usefulness as a currency to nil.

                              Interesting to note though Bitcoins increase in market share - currently at 66%. This further erodes any intrinsic value there might be in this digital currency.

                              Last time I looked miners break even was around $8,000. Bitcoin sliding back down and currently at $9,500. So still a bit of profit to be made.

                              But at break even point we will be at about total mass production - currently 17,800,000 in circulation.

                              So if the vast majority of the worlds population ( I have no idea but lets say it is 99.99%) currently does not hold any Bitcoin then no one is going to offer services to this part of the population. Thus they are missing most of their potential market. Makes no sense - so may as well trade using conventional currency. Adding a million coind may add 1% of teh population to teh user base - still not enough to make the currency viable.

                              Sure miners might eek out a few more of the 21,000,000 - but as this gets harder (and more expensive) to do with a reducing value why bother.

                              So still no difference between the two - they both remain a speculator / gamblers playground.

                              Comment

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