Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Technology - General Discussion

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by John B View Post

    I wouldn't be too fast to write if off BP. Remember the very famous instances where CEO's claimed there would only ever be a need for about 5 home computers in the world - how did that work out?! It is powerful technology.
    You need to distinguish between the technology (block chain) and the securities which happen to be stored in this block chain (like BTC, Ethereum and the at the time of writing this 1558 other listed crypto currencies.

    The technology may well have a future (or not), but no matter whether it does or not, there is nothing in for the people who buy the current crypto securities. Bitcoins et all don't pay dividends; They are just hyped driven securities wiithout underlying value. Remember - that's the price all securities over time return to.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by BlackPeter View Post

      You need to distinguish between the technology (block chain) and the securities which happen to be stored in this block chain (like BTC, Ethereum and the at the time of writing this 1558 other listed crypto currencies.

      The technology may well have a future (or not), but no matter whether it does or not, there is nothing in for the people who buy the current crypto securities. Bitcoins et all don't pay dividends; They are just hyped driven securities wiithout underlying value. Remember - that's the price all securities over time return to.
      In NZ, according to a recent IRD release Cryptocurrencies they aren't even considered a security or currency - they are to be treated as property. Given cryptocurrencies generally don’t produce an income stream or provide any benefits until sold there is a suggestion the purpose of the buy is to trade. In which case tax is payable on the gain. Which means a punter is going to lose about 1/3 of whatever gain they make. (unless of course they make a loss - which is the most likely outcome)

      Comment


      • #48
        Today in Bloomberg

        Click image for larger version

Name:	69A9BA6A-A0FF-4620-B1CC-02E4F0FA5F71.jpeg
Views:	7
Size:	47.0 KB
ID:	6262

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by BlackPeter View Post

          You need to distinguish between the technology (block chain) and the securities which happen to be stored in this block chain (like BTC, Ethereum and the at the time of writing this 1558 other listed crypto currencies.
          I appreciate the difference between the currency and the technology. Microsoft is not computers or software, but that didn't stop them creating the worlds richest man utilising the technology!

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Crackity View Post
            Today in Bloomberg

            Click image for larger version

Name:	69A9BA6A-A0FF-4620-B1CC-02E4F0FA5F71.jpeg
Views:	7
Size:	47.0 KB
ID:	6262
            While this is a great graph and very interesting, the axis depicts 'multiple from starting level'. Not overly relevant in comparison to a share index when you think it through.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by John B View Post

              While this is a great graph and very interesting, the axis depicts 'multiple from starting level'. Not overly relevant in comparison to a share index when you think it through.
              Hmm - I thought it through but am absolutely unclear why you would write what you did. Using a normalized base value is the standard method to compare the development of different securities.

              How else would you do it?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by BlackPeter View Post

                Hmm - I thought it through but am absolutely unclear why you would write what you did. Using a normalized base value is the standard method to compare the development of different securities.

                How else would you do it?
                Starting from a low base perhaps?

                Anyway, good to see blockchain technology being used for something beneficial - tracking food from the farm to the plate. Good for NZ.

                http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/...t-alibaba.html

                Comment


                • #53
                  Hmmm - AFR today - only 81% are scams - seems a little bit low to me....

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	CAF5A780-D062-45FD-BA06-B101094A7EC7.jpeg
Views:	6
Size:	97.2 KB
ID:	6870

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Have to agree Crackity.
                    Apart from BitCoin, what can you actually buy with any of the 1600 "coins" , not that there is much average Joe punter can buy with Bitcoin, or knows how to, either
                    Seems most are the bigger fool theory imho

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MajorMoke View Post
                      In NZ, according to a recent IRD release Cryptocurrencies they aren't even considered a security or currency - they are to be treated as property. Given cryptocurrencies generally don’t produce an income stream or provide any benefits until sold there is a suggestion the purpose of the buy is to trade. In which case tax is payable on the gain. Which means a punter is going to lose about 1/3 of whatever gain they make. (unless of course they make a loss - which is the most likely outcome)
                      There are three types of crypto. You need to distinguish between them. As do lawmakers.
                      1. Currency. Its only function is as a store of value and a means of exchange. eg. Bitcoin
                      2. Utility. It functions as a token required for use of the underlying platform. eg. EOS
                      3. Security. It offers ownership of the platform/business and delivers income and profits to holders. eg. the upcoming tZERO lCO (the Overstock subsidiary)

                      While everyone is focused on the trading of #1 and dismissing it as a bubble, they are ignoring #2 (mostly because they do not understand the technology) and havent even given much thought to #3. While #2 is very exciting and no doubt will launch many innovative and disruptive businesses, from my perspective, its #3 that is of most interest to me. I totally foresee a future where companies don't list on the stock market to raise money, they ICO in the crypto market. Sit back and have a think about what that will mean!
                      Don't drink and buy shares in a downtrend, you bloody idiot!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Interesting - and fair distinction, though I probably would characterize the categories somewhat differently.

                        If we look at your #1 - which is the overwhelming majority (well, at least in terms of market cap) of the current "crypto currency" market) I would disagree with you that the main purpose of it is to store and exchange value. This is just the pretense. Storing value in a security jumping around like yo-yo is clearly not a clever idea ... and lets face it, while people are pretending they might be a means to exchange value - if you look at the ridiculous cost to buy, sell and exchange crypto's (as well as the unstable prices) - fiat currency is in most cases (unless you want to avoid the authorities) a much more clever, reliable and cheaper way to store and exchange value.

                        #2: Fair enough - it is comprehend-able that a market for tokens might develop. What I however don't get is what the benefits of using specific tokens for a specific service would be vs. just paying for services with good old fashioned fiat currency as you need them? It feels a bit like moving back to prehistoric bartering practices. More effort, less efficient and unreliable. Its like having to pay in each shop with their individual vouchers instead of with cash - why would this be any good other than for the shop who benefit form people buying vouchers (spending real money) and than forget to redeem them (or find out that the service or shop is broke before they get around to redemption). It might be an option to trick out the tax-woman but other than that - why would consumers want to do that?

                        #3: again - using crypto's as (unregulated) share or security is clearly conceivable (and done). But than - why would any decent company ICO new tokens instead of funding themselves through the more regulated channels (like IPO, CR, bonds), other than avoiding rules and regulations which are there to protect the investors? I am not saying that all of the people doing ICO's will be fraudsters, but this clearly is a field which would attract fraudsters like rotten meat attracts flies.

                        Not sure I am as excited as you by the idea of going back to the old unregulated Wild West. Enough fraud and incompetence already in our regulated markets. But than - nobody needs to go there, some clever people clearly will make money this way and many others will lose out. Just another get rich quick schema. Nothing new but the technology ...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          You are thinking of blockchain and crypto as enabling businesses to operate in the same way as they currently do, with the same type of ownership structure, and what we've come to accept as the rules of using a particular service. But blockchain allows a total reimagining of the entire system. Therein lies its potential.

                          Imagine if Facebook was put on the blockchain, with tokens issued to users for using the service. The more content you generate for "Blockbook" the more tokens you receive. People who wish to advertise on the platform must buy tokens. Those tokens are distributed equitably to all Blockbook users based on their individual contributions and usage. So you are effectively paid to utilise the service. Rather than one man (Zuckerberg) becoming obscenely wealthy, billions of users share the wealth generated by the sale of their data. You have control over your own data, you choose what to share and what not, and if you choose to share your personal data you are compensated for it. You could convert your tokens to fiat money, or sell them on the open market to advertisers who need to buy them.

                          As for the currency side, if you are operating a global business wouldnt it be handy to only have to deal in one currency? Presumably that's why the EU invented the Euro rather than each country still having its own currency.

                          Have a read of this article - its offers up some great examples of how blockchain can transform the way we do business. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/m...in-bubble.html

                          Lastly, it wont be the wild west. It will have rules, except that it will have its own regulations rather than being forced to be the square peg in our current system's round holes. Most likely global rules not country based rules. And transactions on it will be truly borderless.
                          Don't drink and buy shares in a downtrend, you bloody idiot!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            With respect to the above, watch the second or third episode of 'Black Mirror', the one where they have to cycle for credits and life in a digital world. It's a scary concept.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by KW. View Post
                              You are thinking of blockchain and crypto as enabling businesses to operate in the same way as they currently do, with the same type of ownership structure, and what we've come to accept as the rules of using a particular service. But blockchain allows a total reimagining of the entire system. Therein lies its potential.

                              Imagine if Facebook was put on the blockchain, with tokens issued to users for using the service. The more content you generate for "Blockbook" the more tokens you receive. People who wish to advertise on the platform must buy tokens. Those tokens are distributed equitably to all Blockbook users based on their individual contributions and usage. So you are effectively paid to utilise the service. Rather than one man (Zuckerberg) becoming obscenely wealthy, billions of users share the wealth generated by the sale of their data. You have control over your own data, you choose what to share and what not, and if you choose to share your personal data you are compensated for it. You could convert your tokens to fiat money, or sell them on the open market to advertisers who need to buy them.

                              As for the currency side, if you are operating a global business wouldnt it be handy to only have to deal in one currency? Presumably that's why the EU invented the Euro rather than each country still having its own currency.

                              Have a read of this article - its offers up some great examples of how blockchain can transform the way we do business. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/m...in-bubble.html

                              Lastly, it wont be the wild west. It will have rules, except that it will have its own regulations rather than being forced to be the square peg in our current system's round holes. Most likely global rules not country based rules. And transactions on it will be truly borderless.
                              I like the vision .. but I lack the faith One single currency in a world with some 200 fiat currencies and some 1600 crypto so called currencies, the latter exclusively and the earlier as well driven by greed and fear. I think you first would need to remove the humans from this equation. Everything else will be easy.

                              BTW - it is Karl Marx 200'ths birth year (and his birthday just passed). He had a similar problem. Great vision, wrong humans. Remember?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by KW. View Post

                                There are three types of crypto. You need to distinguish between them. As do lawmakers.
                                1. Currency. Its only function is as a store of value and a means of exchange. eg. Bitcoin
                                2. Utility. It functions as a token required for use of the underlying platform. eg. EOS
                                3. Security. It offers ownership of the platform/business and delivers income and profits to holders. eg. the upcoming tZERO lCO (the Overstock subsidiary)

                                !
                                4. Property. And will be treated as such by NZ IRD

                                Comment

                                HLG

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X